Why is Empire the "best" of the holy trinity?

[Stinky]

I've heard it more and more recently. From sources as far and wide as Artsy-fartsy flim critics to dyed-in-the-wool Star Wars nuts.

Empire is supposed to be the "best" film.

Now... I've seen them all. Learned 'em lived 'em and loved 'em.... but, the only real difference in the movies that I can see, is that, Empire is the 2nd act of a 3 act play. That being said the heroes will find the nature of their foe and will reach their most desperate and needful state.

As a result, the plot will be more "dark" and "adult" but that is a function of plot, not of the "greatness" of this movie.

Or perhaps is it the cinematography? Or some other aspect of the "craft" of filmmaking that I'm not seeing. (Mind you, when I watch these movies today I am more reliving my childhood viewings than "watching" the movie)

Or is there something that I am missing? If so please enighten me...

Stinky

[dinky]

I'm an aristotle whore, which means plot and dialogue are a hell of a lot more important than cinematography to me, so I'd say you pretty much nailed it: it's better, "darker," more "adult" material. but eye-candy don't hurt, and empire had better vehicles (snow speeder, AT-AT).

[Blade Runner]

Nah bollocks, RoTJ is the best In my opinion

[mw2merc]

tESB also introduced Taun Tauns, AT-STs, SnowTroopers, Bounty Hunters (Boba Fett no less), Yoda, Cloud City, Leia reveals she does love Han, Luke gets his hand whacked off, Darth Vader reveals he's Luke's Father, and Boba Fett takes Han off to Tatooine frozen in carbonite. It's so much more story than the other 2. Plus it's a darker film overall.

[O.G.N.A.N.O.]

I loooooooooooooovvvvvvvveeeeeeee EWOKS !!!!

[spudthedestroyer]

ESB is the best film simply because... well its the best film. Each person has their own reasons why its their favourite/ least favourite. The simple fact of the matter, is it does everything better than the others (although you can argue in favour of some of jedi's action sequences if that's what your in the wars for , but i find jedi to be a weaker film overall) so you can take your pick as to why different people think its the best. Its got the best art direction, the best story line, best acting, best execution, *perfect* pacing (and that's really hard to pull off! )... the whole way the movie was crafted was genious (so I predict Lucas involvement to be incidental ), the way it cuts between Degobah and the Falcon.. top stuff. And the asteroid sequence is awsome. The power of that edit is second to none. It is quite clearly the best of all the star wars films in my view, simply because it does everything better.


Personally, the Asteroid chase and the star destroyers after the millenium falcon is one of my favourite moments on screen.

Best of the best as it were.

[dinky]

I wouldn't say the acting is any better. but I wouldn't cite any of the trilogy for particularly good acting - maybe empire was the best of the mediocre in that regard. I guess you could say Harrison emoted well...but it seemed the same to me each time around - and it became his schtick, which gets blown up and (imo) better in the indy series.

[O.G.N.A.N.O.]

I'll admit that the first time I was glued to the screen as a kid.....

But tie me on a chair and make me watch ESB , I'll probably fall asleep ...

It's just....ESB starts off soooo cool......it kind of wets the appetite too much....
You're just waiting for an even bigger treat ........that will never come.....

Kinda Star trek 8- first contact effect.....

Shit that flick became a die hard rip-off at some points ; Die hard on the enterprise....

As for the cliffhanger punch of Solo being frozen....
Well... to me it was pretty clear it was just to wet the appetite again....

Thank god the ewoks saved the trilogy !!! They easily out-acted Mark hamill....

[dinky]

Thank god the ewoks saved the trilogy

the more you talk about the ewoks, the less sarcastic I think you're being.

[maxpayne2409]

maybe he's not being sarcastic, maybe he really does like the ewoks, enough people must've done for them to spawn they're own cartoon spinoff, imo esb is the worst of the trilogy, but ive never been one for things that go dark as that always seems to ruing things (take a look at airwolf season 3, or the latter seasons of miami vice)

[dinky]

in the immortal words of Dante Hicks: "empire had the better ending...it ends on such a down note...that's what life is, a series of down ending. all jedi had was a buncha muppets."

[maxpayne2409]

how can u claim the realism ending makes it the better film when realism doesnt contain big sluggy aliens, millenium falcons and carbonite???

[Stinky]

I must admit, last night I viewed Empire... and I'd have to agree w/ spud. The magic that a good editor can do is quite visible. There is very little that could be improved. So I guess I'm a convert. Empire is the best movie.

But I still like Jedi the best. A and B Wings... Speeder bikes and a chance to see the rebellion apart from the main charaters. But Sy Snootles and the muppets at Jabba's palace are too painful for me to watch. Nobody can convince me that the guy that designed those puppets thought ANYBODY would think they were anything but puppets.... but anyways I digress.

@ Dinky: Remember though, in the orignal "down ending" of Clerks Dante gets Shot dead in a meaningless real-life hold-up. Kevin Smith later admited that he was happier with the "happy" ending. Real life does not always a good movie make.

Stinky

[dinky]

I reiterrate: all jedi had was a buncha muppets.

ps - speeders were cool, scouts looked great too - better than snowtroopers

pps - taking anything I say seriously is your first mistake

ppps - er...except for that.

pppps - and that.

ppppps - and that. shit!

pppppps- blah!

[maxpayne2409]

i thought those snow monster things on hoth were jsut teh most uber gay thing ive ever seen in my entire life, and they looked like a lecturer who used to take my group for some shitty lesson at college

[spudthedestroyer]

I love jedi, its ragged on so much and most of the time its unjusitfied imo. The editing is great once again at the finale, its a very tight edit between the moon of endor, the lightsaber dual and the space battle that you can't help but be engrossed (anyone that claims otherwise I'd call a liar or deluding themselves... sure its not as good a film, but if you didn't get sucked into the the climate .... well I don't know what to say.). However, no matter how hard the campaign in its favour its still no ESB. It lacks the story, the atmosphere and welll... its just not Empire.

Empire does it all better. The best part of film is towards the end, the begining is slow and less important (in the scale of the movie, despite the great begining), but as soon as luke hits degobah and Han is fleeing from the imperials I really struggle to fault it, no matter how hard I try.

The criticism are always too weak and missing the point to even scratch the surface. The light saber dual between Vader and Luke is the best saber dual, its not some crappy.. faster...faster battle like the phnatom menace, its strong, and powerful. The whole battle is really good against evil... and then wham evil wins. No one was expecting that! And then the 'sacrifice' and rescue I thought set jedi up on a 'you can't fail' path.

As said, the asteroid chase really can't be faulted, everything is perfect, its so fast and ... well to overuse the word, brilliant. Degobah allows for the expansion not of action, but of the whole shabang of what star wars is about; good and evil. People say Yoda is a crappy puppet, but his character is so well used that no1 gives a flying f*ck and if you do, stick to some no brained crap fest. its your loss! The whole degobah sequence is a perfect break from what's happening with the falcon, such calm training next to the mayhem of the asteriod field.

Anyone knows that I'm willing to criticise to death were critiscism is due, but in empire its really hard to justifiably fit in, in my view. I haven't watched empire for about 6months, I'm waiting for the DVDs... but everytime I watch it, it really does justify itself as the best film around. I give cirticism a lot, but here's my criticism of empire, its the best bit of cinema your likely to ever see, so see it and enjoy
-----

Now as a seperate statement, I'd like to talk about the overrating of the 'original' (aka A New Hope) . I feel that lots of the emphasis of this one film springs from the whole star wars trilogy being the best films commited to film, rather than a comment on the first film in isolation as it should be in fairness. Sure it had a big impact back in the day and deserves credit, but now, with it being a historic event, I personally think it is the least enjoyable (at least on replay value) of the original three. I think Empire is leagues ahead of the others, and indeed, everything (being my favourite film), its then followed by Jedi in the trilogy (which I believe is a lot down to the way I view and enjoy it. People rag on ewoks and puppets, I think thats overbearing and missing the point, sure there's puppets, but I really don't notice nor care because the last half hour picks up where empire left off and really does the trick) and then Star Wars is bottom of the three imo. I was born after all of them came out, so there's no prejudice on that front... I saw Jedi first on BBC or video first, I remember watching it and being compelled at such a young age. Nothing came close. It is clear to me that Empire Strikes Back is the best of the best (looking round, the star wars fans consistantly vote it leagues ahead too, so I guess I'm not out on a limb on this one [not that it matters much, I nearly always am with my comments, but at least I justify them all, or at least hope I do ]), I find it really hard to fault it, at least after the Hoth battle. Even during and before its still top class and enjoyavke

I've heard it quoted over and over that George Lucas' power is really in the edit, if he edited Empire, then he truely deserves his fame despite any shit he's pulled of late. Empire is the best, its got a better story line, it dares to do more and succeeds, it is much more balanced in terms of action, it contains perhaps the most gripping sequence in cinema history, it contains one of the greatest twist endings, it ends on a stunning downer and sets up a great finale.

Top class.

When it comes to the star wars trilogy its very confusing... why do such simple films bring out such strong emotions from even the most hardened 'intellectual critics' around? The answer is as simple as the films themselves... its no nonsense epic cinema catharism. It maybe simple, but it does it so brilliantly that it can't be faulted because of this. The first one, is a bit dumb and unsure of itself, but its presented so passionately that even still its a moment of greatness, but Empire is such a bold and confident film that... well you know how I feel about it. Jedi seems a bit, 'we need an epic ending' but it never acheives the high of estb, but acheives 'greatness' in its own right.

Dinky's quote is to the point, the downer is such an upper for many people. Brilliant film making at its best.

My 2 cents

[maxpayne2409]

i was also too young to see them on original, the first one i saw was "rotj" on vhs and then i went to see all the special editions at the cinema and then bought all the special editions on vhs and borrowed all the originals off a friend to compare them, and i honestly found myself watching "rotj" over and over again, and "anh" a couple of times each version too but i just couldnt sit through "esb" more then once each edition, and no im not saying this just for sods sake of being different to spud, i suppose i will have to rewatch them all again and see if anything new stirs up inside my movie lovers heart, will empire move up or will it not, i'll let you all know when ive rewatched them all

[Jynks]

ESB also introduced Taun Tauns, AT-STs, SnowTroopers, Bounty Hunters (Boba Fett no less), Yoda, Cloud City, Leia reveals she does love Han, Luke gets his hand whacked off, Darth Vader reveals he's Luke's Father, and Boba Fett takes Han off to Tatooine frozen in carbonite. It's so much more story than the other 2. Plus it's a darker film overall.

I think mw2merc quote and spuds points on film technique have nailed has it. and I would mainly be restating what has already been said. The ammount of stuff happening in empires and the quality of the scriptinig editing/direction is miles in front of the other 4 flicks.

Leigh Brackett worked as a dialouge scripter during the touch up phase of empires with Lawrence Kasdan while Lawrence Kasdan wrote Jedi all on his own. Even though Georgy is credited as scripter, he was really should have gotten a created by credit. From reports I have read george wrote the script the same way he dose the rest of the filming... describes what he wants then selects from a pool of options from his crew and makes minor changes.

Anyway Leigh Brackett worked on the dialouge of empires and was almost fired twice by lucus, and it was Irvin Kershner who fought tooth and nail with lucus for her to remain on the scripting job. Think about the BEST lines in Swars and for me most of them are from empires... sure jedi and swars have good lines to but some of the BEST stuff in in empires.

Talking about Irvin Kershner he had to fight all the time for creative control of the project and it was lucus experience with him that made him move into the habit of hiring crap directors that he could controle utterly.

Quote off the top of my head.

Join me it in the only way - Emp
Do or do not there is no try - Emp
I luv u, I know - Emp
You don'tr know the power of the dark side - emp
Bring me my shuttle - Swars
The more you tighten your grip tark the more star systems will slip through your fingers - Swars
Punch it Chewie - Emp
Never tell me the odds - Emp
The emporer is nto as forgiving as I - Jedi
Apolagy Acepted Cpt Needer - Emp
No Disintergrations - Emp
but, I was going into tarshy tio pick up some wer converters - Swars (winny tone)
Looks like I'm not goign anywhere - Swars
You fly that thing, your braver than I though - Swars
What a peace of junk - Swars

[spudthedestroyer]

How can you not mention:

Try not, do or do not.... there is no try!

[dinky]

How can you not mention:

Try not, do or do not.... there is no try!

anyway, I thought the</i> best line was the bit about "you're braver than I thought". and of course, I'm partial to the good blaster.

one question though: why is Greedo shooting first a bad idea? I mean, if he can't hit Han when he shoots first, what chance does he have shooting second? While originally pretty funny, upon further investigation, I think KS might have entered into the realm of Michael Bay reasoning for that one.