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Postby MyK on Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:02 am

IUNNO Spud's comments were pretty unbiased so far :lol:

You know that BD vs HD-DVD war is slowly pissing me off. I've seen prices for hybrid blue & red laser players currently on the market and that's just ridiculous. You can get pretty descent standalone BR or HD-DVD players for less than $200 and 5.25" PC units also serving as DVD recorders for less than $100 each yet no company has come up with anything worth mentioning on the hybrid market with prices more than double of separate units. I know the hybrid laser diodes and pick-up units are expensive but not in that price range (we're talking ~ $35 per unit here) and they might be hard to come by but I thought some company would come up with a mechanism with two (OK three if they add DVD functionality in as well) separate laser & pick-up units for each format by now but no... they prolly think it's impossible and even I know that isn't true. Remember that Kenwood 72x CD unit that used three separate lasers and pick-up units to read three tracks at a time? And that was what, more than 5 years ago at around year 2K? Kenwood has done it (tho admittedly with less than stellar controller to drive all that) so long ago and now I'm supposed to believe companies like Hitachi, Sony, Pioneer, LG, Toshiba, NEC,... aren't capable of making that same thing (only with three different lasers) themselves nowadays? If you ask me there's something way smellier than your average crap we're talking of here. Either that or they're waiting for some poor Russian sod to assemble such unit on his own and not have the buck for a patent so they can than steal the design like they normally do :twisted: My 5 cents says they're intentionally sitting their fat arses on our tomorrow that never comes and all that "format war" was agreed on years ago by major players. "But we must cover the cost of R&D"... yeah, rite... what R&D??? They can't even test products with so obvious problems a moron can spot the very first day of using it... what, they've just run out of morons they could use for testing products before launch? :P Don't tell me all those masses of Serbians with extremely low foreheads all work already as night club bouncers and can't be arsed :lol:
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Postby maxpayne2409 on Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:13 am

:lol: i just like calling spud a fanboy coz he doesn't like it at all.

I don't know where your looking at those cheap $200 BR HD-DVD players, coz at work we only sell 1 and it's BR and costs a penny off £800, rip off if you ask me, especially when you compare it to the fact we sell a ps3 that you can also play games on, for around £300 with 2 games, an extra controller and some other jazz
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Postby MyK on Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:32 am

maxpayne2409 wrote:I don't know where your looking at those cheap $200 BR HD-DVD players


MyK wrote:BR or HD-DVD players for less than $200


With emphasis on "or"... not hybrids that support both formats ;) OK it's more like "roundish" $200 for BD players with initial purchase price of $300+ and mail in rebates and some "complimentary" movies cushion the blow to ~ $200 ... but you do need ~ $300-400+ of "spare change" to buy something within a price range of $200-300 nowadays. Anyway, even if I said $400 each you still get both for $800... that's two boxes with all that goes along with them for way less than a single hybrid player. Don't know what the actual exchange rate is but I'd say 800 pounds is at least double the value of 800 USD right :? It seems we're back in the days when having a 2ft Hi-Fi setup with 10+ remotes laying around is a norm. That's progress for you. :wacky:

BTW there are still loads of ppl out there (in some other forums) that think that's normal and are saying I should remember how steep the prices were for CD players when they first came out. That's just plain bollocks. First, it's been years now that BD and HD-DVD drives were first introduced and second, it's not like they had to reinvent all the hardware is it? They can still use the same drives only swap the laser unit and a controller... perhaps not that easy but they certainly need not reinvent the servo mechanism and all that's exactly the same (even a bit outdated to be precise as most plain DVD drives already have way better servos and disk stabilization mechanics in them). You can get a basic drive without any control unit and laser for peanuts... add to that ~$35 worth laser and pick-up unit and say ~$10 per unit (that should cover R&D costs sufficiently IMO) for a controller and you got yourself a hybrid HR unit for what, roundish $50-80? Add assembly & shipping costs (say $20) and your local brick and mortar profits (say 50% of MSRP)... that rounds to at most $150 with average of about $100... And we're supposed to buy that for 800+ pounds? what am I missing here???
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Postby dinky on Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:32 pm

yeah. both hd formats have dropped a couple hundred dollars off their low end models for the holidays. but those price drops were instituted by the retailers, not the manufacturers. the suggested retail price hasn't changed by the manufacturers. I think walmart and perhaps target were the first to offer $100, single format players? given the average cost of a bluray player at the moment</i>, I completely agree with max (yikes!). get the ps3 and you have a bluray player AND a gaming console for the same price as a comparable bluray standalone. ($300-$700).
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Postby maxpayne2409 on Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:40 pm

i noticed you said or myk, but i was also meaning or, a BR or HD-DVD plyaer (not hybrid) is still about £800 at work. Also yes, £800 is about $1600 i think, or thereabouts give or take a hundred
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Postby dinky on Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:18 pm

maxpayne2409 wrote:$1600 i think, or thereabouts give or take a hundred
:?

that can't be right. I mean...I'm not arguing with you. you work at the damn store. you'd know what they cost. but $1600??? umm...to quote a movie that needs no introduction: "we could almost buy our own ship for that!" seriously, you could buy TWO of the most expensive bluray standalones for that price. you could pocket 3 PS3s for that price and still have $100 to spare. is the UK really that expensive?
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Postby maxpayne2409 on Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:27 pm

even worse, i just ran it through a current currency converter and it came out $1,620.29

Here's the price off the store site

[url=http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/0850889/Trail/searchtext>BLU+RAY.htm]Sony BDP-SE1 Blu-Ray DVD Player. 085/0889 Product detail Sony BDP-SE1 Blu-Ray DVD Player.
£699.99[/url]

ok seems it's gone down in price by £100 but still that's weighing in at around $1400 for a blu ray

We sell a lesser model that's not in the catalogue that's on offer for christmas at £350, but outside of christmas is £500, which is still $700-$1000

We only sell 1 HD-DVD player and it's £200, which is about $400 just over, which is a better deal, but that item only came into stock last week, but seriously big difference in price between HD-DVD and BR, and little choice to go with either, the 2 BR players are Sony, the HD-DVD is toshiba, still works out better to get a PS3 if you want blu ray in england
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Postby MyK on Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:32 am

I like the product description page that just lists "blue" in the first alinea :lol: It seems that player has also a bank robber proximity alarm built in... if there's any customer seriously contemplating of buying it for that price you can safely conclude that customer is not spending his/her own money on it and had just been caught blu-handed :lol:
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Postby maxpayne2409 on Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:21 am

Yes, i also love the fact a product specification is "blue" as a blu ray surely could never be red or the world would end :lol:

Anyway watched latest heroes (season 2 finale?) it was good, it did it's best to wrap things up in a sense

also watched last 2 weeks eps of Chuck, still enjoy it
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Postby MyK on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:11 am

"Disturbia" = generic teenage thriller with absolutely nothing going for it. Harsh? Yep! True? Yep!

Oh, and a few of "Shooting Stars" :D Ulrica-ca-ca-ca-ca :D I couldn't find any good rips of this most fab & fun panel/quiz show with mostly VHS quality rips out there which is a shame really :(
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Postby maxpayne2409 on Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:12 am

it was only ever released on vhs i think, and then only select episodes, if it ever airs again i can maybe cap some for you so you have some higher quality ones
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Postby MyK on Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:51 am

That'd be awesome tho I have a feeling if it ever aired again ppl would cap it like crazy anyhow prolly including me ;) BTW what's the best (most comprehensive) web page with UK TV listings? There are plenty on the net only I can't find any that would enable me to login, select content that I'm interested in (by type or titles) only on channels that I can actually watch and send me email reminders... is there any such TV portal? Problem is I don't normally watch TV at all and if there's some repeats I'd like to cap I'll most prolly miss the first few eps before some friend of mine gives me heads up.
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Postby maxpayne2409 on Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:34 pm

i don't really know, i don't really watch tv, but i give my grandmas tv book a scan each week after i take her to the supermarket to see what's on
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Postby Jynks on Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:13 am

it looks like blueray is winning... most dvd stores i walk into have a much larger selection on blueray at the mo... i hear that hddvd is in fact the superior format.. like beta and vhs
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Postby maxpayne2409 on Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:17 am

yeah i see more blu ray dvds in stores and online then i do HD-DVD, but i also heard HD-DVD was better
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Postby dinky on Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:04 pm

it's not better from a technical standpoint. bluray holds more data than HD-DVD. Something like 50g vs. 30-35g iirc. it's better in price and available titles (though that's subjective), and certain other considerations related to drm and licensing or whatnot. anyway...the ps3 is the ONLY reason bluray is ahead in sales. people aren't choosing to buy the HD-DVD add-on for the 360 because buying either is a waste of money right now. it just so happens that you don't have a choice if you want the ps3 console. :2cents:
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Postby MyK on Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:52 pm

Let's see...

Capacity: BD wins with 25GB/layer and support for at least 4 layers/side vs. HD-DVD with 15-17GB/layer with up to three layers each side possible so far (technically speaking, they're not on the market yet). BD is also not even close to saturation point with data density per layer due to blue laser having much higher frequency than red laser. All sorts of added features are possible due to this in the future like even higher data density per layer and/or greater data redundancy. There's no point arguing over this, BD clearly wins.

Disk Durability: BD wins with all disks coated with protective coating innovated by TDK. While HD-DVD disks might use that also it's not generally used due to added cost (and the only such tech worth mentioning comes from the BD camp). BD disks actually need such coating due to first layer being so close to the surface (IIRC it's a portion of a millimetre only). All in all, BD wins.

Video Quality: It all depends on compression methods used. Arguably, HD-DVD camp uses more advanced compression methods so far but that's only due to HD-DVD disks having less data capacity IMO. BD could use any of the compressions used in HD-DVD if they needed to. It should also be noted that higher compression means more processing is involved when decompression data. That is totally subjective tho as I can't see any benefits going with "faster" compressions. Both formats use quite capable processors to decompress data stored on discs. It's a tie ;)

Content Availability: This is slowly shifting in BD's favour but it all depends on where you live. HD-DVD had way more titles to choose from even a few months ago and that might still be the case in most parts of the world. This is where the outcome of the format war will be decided IMO. So far, it's a tie ;)

Content Pricing: While BD disks might be more costly to produce we're still in the price range where production costs are easily absorbed within the actual sale price of a title. Problem with production costs for BD disks is they will initially be used less for non-retail titles where production costs play a major role and where BD's storage capacity is not needed. There are clear advantages of one format over the other here but, generally, it's a tie with price per GB more or less the same ;)

Storage Market: This market is thoroughly neglected by both camps so far and could easily shift advantage of one format over the other IMO. BD has greater capacity per disk but is also pricier (both recorders and media). I can't stress enough how important is storage market here. If any of the camps starts fulfilling their promises the other one is doomed within a year IMO. Most of us ordinary mortals could use added capacity over DVDs but that's only a fraction of what storage market is worth. What is missing from the equation so far are mainly digital libraries or rather the lack of support for them by both camps. BD has clear advantage here but is worth nothing while only on paper. No points for either camp here ;)

Players Availability and Pricing: I'm sorry to say but HD-DVD clearly wins this one. While you might argue there's PS3 you could buy if you're interested in BD, standalone HD-DVD players and their PC counterparts are cheaper and you can get a hold of them easier. BD is missing a huge piece of a pie with their strategy of making mostly only top class players (most even without SACD support, mind you). Most of us mere mortals are not prepared to part with such large sums of hard earned money just to add another (quite possibly soon to be useless) component to our media centre. Also, designs of standalone BD players might be a bit of a problem here. It's not that it bother me personally but your average techie might have difficulties convincing his wife that blue player doesn't look stupid on top of other silver or black components. Until PS3 drops to about $200 or you're able to buy BD player without the pretentious looks HD-DVD camp wins this one in my eyes.

Recordable Media: It's useless to argue either way here IMO. BD media have capacity and HD-DVD media have retail prices speaking for themselves. Availability is less then stellar for both of them and that shows on the retail price. This market is largely still non-existent so it's a unrespectable tie.

...

Conclusion: It's a mess. I honestly hope some other tech comes along and beats the hell out of both camps. Till then, I'll be using consoles with support for BDs (PS3) and HD-DVDs (mod for Xbox) and my parents will be connected to my data server (using capacious HDDs) to watch/listen to whatever they wish on their MC. They just love that... one remote for all their fav series, movies, music, TV,... and all you need is a fast wireless access point or LAN over power line with a player with media streaming capabilities you can connect to a TV and a Hi-Fi. If you have TV over IP chances are your set op box already supports all that. Cheap (one device at ~ $200), fast (up to 200Mbps), easy (my grandparents can use it :mrgreen:).
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Postby spudthedestroyer on Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:42 pm

dinky wrote:it's not better from a technical standpoint. bluray holds more data than HD-DVD. Something like 50g vs. 30-35g iirc. it's better in price and available titles (though that's subjective), and certain other considerations related to drm and licensing or whatnot. anyway...the ps3 is the ONLY reason bluray is ahead in sales. people aren't choosing to buy the HD-DVD add-on for the 360 because buying either is a waste of money right now. it just so happens that you don't have a choice if you want the ps3 console. :2cents:


I'm going to butt in here as a technical standpoint.

Standards. HD-DVD is a finished standard, and a more mature implementation. Bluray as no standards and as soon as features are introduced, they run the risk of devaluing every player on the market.


My stance is purely as a movie fan and as a horror fan that wants the best content, in the best quality, uncensored and is willing to do so by importing. I think bluray is not only a bad format, its a disastrous format that I just couldn't bring myself to buy the more i thought about it. Its a technology by one company vs a technology from an open standards council that have produced a mature implementation that is fully speced. I think it would be an unmitigated disaster if sony won here on the 'strength' on game console sales.


My weighing in of this i did a while back
http://forum.dead-donkey.com/viewtopic. ... hlight=dvd

Censorship, proprietary formats, and region free make hd-dvd the best alternative if you like films. The fact that the spec is done, the players are better and more feature rich and its sales are decent without having a major console pushing all sales just sealed it for me.

Storage and backup i don't care about, its irrelevant for me when content is digital and hdd are cheap :)

I'm going to wait till after xmas and buy a cheap standalone hd-dvd player (they are sub 100$ and region free) and a 1080p projector.


Two quotes, one by me, one a report about another big worry regarding bluray:

spudthedestroyer wrote:Microsoft want hd-dvd to fail just as much as bluray; microsoft is hugely invested in downloadable content and xbox live is where they want success.
So imo, microsoft are behind hd-dvd in a very loose name association only and that's probably more because they are bitterly anti-bluray than they support hd-dvd in any way.





The company will not allow its disc-replicating subsidiary, Sony DADC Global, to handle adult film titles, it said this week. In markets where Sony operates around the world, it won't duplicate any movies that are above a certain rating or that have not been certified by a local motion picture association.
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Postby spudthedestroyer on Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:49 pm

just a quicky about what i mean with the 'spec not being finished' on bluray:
http://www.dvdtown.com/news/playstation ... month/4982
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Postby MyK on Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:13 am

Regarding Sony's policy that's not so much of a bother if you ask me. It's just what Sony as a label will not print. It's not like they will prohibit others from printing such material if they so choose. It's like if WB said they'll not release any pr0n on DVDs and then taking that as there'll be no pr0n DVDs available anywhere by any company. It's not a news really it's just some footnote taken out of context and blown out of proportions by the other camp IMO. I'm subscribed to Sony's press releases (e-newsletter) and remember one message that had that same line in a completely different context regarding Sony as a label and not their policy on BD and its licensing. I'll try to find it but am subscribed to so many newsletters it's gonna be difficult (I used to work for a news company back in the days and am still subscribed as a professional LOL).
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