The last movie you saw...

[maxpayne2409]

yeah being able to laugh at yourself is a great virtue, hence why i watch everything i watch a lot of it is cheesey B stuff but who cares. Aslong as ya have fun what does it matter

[spudthedestroyer]

erm S5 would be a miniseries S4 has some of the best episodes I may go so far as saying its my favourite series, but that's very hard since series 3 is excellent. Its better than S2 imo.

The multiparters are first character development, then typical Crichton mad plans... as usual.

[dinky]

heh. yeah, my bad. s4. I'm disappointed so far (in s4). I hope it's not your favorite cuz of the looney tunes & nintendoish eps. they weren't bad, but kind of like novelty items to me (plus, it reminds me too much of star trek). the pop references are decidedly more frequent again too.

1812 is funny. "see if you can wake-up some of your cousins. and no singing!"

[spudthedestroyer]

I already told you they are the only two episodes I hate in farscape a few pages back before you got to them, the cartoon one (s3) and the stuck in the game one (s4).
Nintendoish? It seemed more like Don Quixote if you ask me.

Farscape S4 is just bigger than the rest, bigger budget, bigger scenes, bigger cinematography (16x9, s2 + s3 feel like they were when you think back, but s4 actually is, big shots, big sets). Its also about Crichton being a nutjob, with big nutty plans

I think i liked S4, S3, S2, S1 in that order

[dinky]

ah. right. memory noted you said something about them.

well it was named</i> john quixote. but they were in a video game.

just got through the arc (ep14?) where he finds his way home. wrong time. fixes timeline. then finds home at right time and does the real meet 'n' greet. but he's suddenly somehow not interested in actually staying and "preparing earth for what is coming." scorpius seems to have just struck a deal with that interchangable red head; so the ulterior motives beyond safeguarding crichton are presumably on the way. I think I liked it more when it was a convoluted triangle (rectangle?) between crichton-scorpius-scarens with a side of crais/talon. but where the scarrens are the major threat. lately, it's the t'pol lady, and I have a hard time taking her as the big bad.

[spudthedestroyer]

I finished watching Angel, all series and the finalé. Yeah, i was right, Angel was definitely better than Buffy The Vampire Slayer was. I think its about scale, Angel just had the bigger scale, and it pulled the audience's strings more. I guess i really can't say that without rewatching all of Buffy, but i don't think it will change.

[dinky]

no. it won't change. you're whack. (although the finale 2 seasons of buffy never should have been - creative bankruptcy). seasons 1 & 2 of buffy kick the shit outta any angel season. and the overall for the first 5 vs. first 5 is (closer) but easily the same result.

been sick. not watching anything.

[maxpayne2409]

watched hte 90min pilot for brisco county jr last night, bit of bruce campbell. always good

[spudthedestroyer]

no. it won't change. you're whack. (although the finale 2 seasons of buffy never should have been - creative bankruptcy). seasons 1 & 2 of buffy kick the shit outta any angel season. and the overall for the first 5 vs. first 5 is (closer) but easily the same result.

Well imo, no way, no how. Its one of those times I just think your dripping on the wacky stuff/brain aids you have.


hehe, on a less thread-orientated dinky bashing front, i just don't think you've got the same desire. I'm drawn towards something with an overall point, and stuff like scale, madness, etc. I think that explains why i love Farscape, its not just a scifi show, the overall show is just one long highly-destructive romance story, with a scale that's detached from the little man. Babylon 5, another of my favourites, is all politics and generals in war time.

Angel, kind of fits in more, its about the last champion of the apocalypse. Buffy is about a chick that protects a hellmouth.

I'll strive to make time to watch buffy again, i have seen them all, early series a few times. I have seen them all though, its not a snap decision since i tend to like to devore a couple of series to know they are progressing in scale, and rewatching Angel has confirmed what i've said before; Angel was clearly better than Buffy was. Buffy had a much longer running time and great episodes, but S1 and 2 are overrated and only have the impact thing going for them. IMO its more of the South Park effect, the first series are pretty lame, but since you lived through their arrivale and how new they were (and Buffy changed scifi forever) there's this inflated self importance that isn't actually there if you pluck it out of time and compare. Angel S1 is a bit ropey, just like Buffy S1 and 2 were, even still I'd probably take Angel S1, but S2+ are better than anything Buffy ever did.

Looking at buffy, I mean all that Master shit was hella-lame, the mayor snake was hella-lame, the army people were EXCEPTIONALLY lame (only good thing was spike), Dawn was a little bitch and annoying as hell, the "master evil" geeks was amusing but not really amazing... Tara getting shot was good The ultimate evil thing that could change form was ok as a concept but imo didn't work. The entire ending to the series was so lame too, its too caught up in sunnydale and there's like 3 slayer girls that die, but really... there's no sense of danger or ultimate battle. Meh.

Funny thing is, i hate the army episodes with a passion, yet the submarine episode where the chip in the brain thing is nodded at in angel is good

There's some great episodes in its run, but the series... meh, no where near as good imo, even if it has some great episodes. Inflated view of buffy imo. I'll strive to rewatch, but i've seen em all and no, they never reached the same thing as angel. Its because the angel setup was bigger and better, I think its apparant that i like things with a bit of pompous scale. I don't mind admiting that. Wolf, Ram and Hart was hella-cool and not just some localised devise, visions was good, editing and style was better, gore was better, angel + cordy was better than buffy + angel. My criticism of Angel is it went through way too many good big evil mojos in quick succession in series 3+4, the thing is the "minibosses" were better in angel than the "main bosses" in buffy. I also wasn't fond of the connor aging devise, it was better than that Dawn crap, and it worked out well in destroying the hopes and breaking hearts over the Cordelia/Angel thing, and it goes further into darkening the tone of the series next to buffy (the whole dispare thing). Problem is its the reason for all the "minibosses" dying. Series 5 was a weird one, the individual episodes are decent enough, but you long for a story ark, and its harder to see, but when it pops out its the big event of the buffyverse. edit: also i remember, the illyria thing I wasn't fond of... Joss Whedon and his god damn uber-chic fetish .

Stuff like raining fire and the massacre at Wolfram & Hart stand out more than anything in buffy did for me (apart from her skimpy clothes ). I also liked the characters better in angel, they seemed a lot more capable of mixed motives, doublecross and murky motives. That and Charisma Carpenter is damn fine Ending was much better for Angel than was for buffy, no one likes a happy ending.

Contrast between buffy and angel is that angel probably got better in the long run, and buffy got worse. But then i think firefly is utter shite, worse than buffy and angel.

So i just think the whole thing was just designed better for my tastes aka. pompous epics; its a bigger scale, better story, stronger characters, etc.

[spudthedestroyer]

my sister has lent me here Buffy S1 dvd, so i'll try and watch that tonight. Lets see if its as good as i remember it was, and not as good as angel as i also remember it was. Just need to psyche myself upto devolving angel i just watched about 10 years. Its always weird watching a later series to an early series (albeit it different shows but the same kind of mythos).

Oh and i remember something that pissed me off about Angel S5 that i didn't mention on the list. The way they refer to buffy/other characters. They were well beyond that shit, i can understand why they tied em together and the S1 need for the bit characters, but it really didn't need it much. Okay, the immortal episode was amusing, but it still kind of pissed me off that they had to pander to people wanting a buffy fix since buffy had finished and angel was still going at that point.

[dinky]

erm...you know it's wolfram and hart (wiki link), right?

well, we agree on one thing, the finale was far better on angel</i>. although except for one or two eps of buffy</i>, these are essentially comic book universes where whatever evil one faces is 'the biggest, baddest thing going.'

buffy</i> has a lot more going on in it than angel</i>, generally speaking (and especially the first few 2 seasons of buffy</i>). angel's situation is archetypal in his own series, very archetypal...luke skywalker/han solo archetypal. it's all very easy (well, for the most part. the series has its moments.) buffy</i>, though...well it's not so easy. who can she trust, how can she go about her business and...well...go about her business? her situation is similar to that of spider-man's, easily one of the most complex superheros. xander's and willow's and cordy's situations are not less daunting. and the tenuous balance with which they move in and out of "saving the world" and "going on a date" is simply beyond anything angel</i> achieves. not beyond in terms of number of lives saved. but by that logic, the silver surfer is the best marvel superhero because his task is on a more cosmic scale than x-men or spidey or (especially) batman (not marvel but proves the point). and nothing in angel</i> compares to the final shot of buffy</i> s2 when she has just killed angel, been run out of house & school, and leaves sunnydale on the bus. everything remotely similar to these situations with angel (e.g. cordy, connor) was done first and better</i> on buffy</i>.

additionally the lines are better in buffy</i> s1 & s2 compared to all others of both shows:

(I'm approximating the convos)

buffy: brad pitt. on a deserted carribean island. drinking pinocoladas.

xander: whatcha doing?

buffy: playing anywhere but here.

xander: mary jane. recess. on the seesaw.

willow: but you always wish for that! what's wrong with you? why can't you come-up with something else?

xander: I'm just not fickle with my emotions, like you two.

or...

willow: she's acting like a b.i.t.c.h.

xander: a bitca?


or....

giles: you've been out slaying for 2 weeks straight. maybe you just imagined it.

buffy: giles! are you, of all people, trying to scully me?


I realize we're measuring these shows on different scales, but dayum! angel</i> better than buffy</i>? you're missing a whole lot.

[maxpayne2409]

personally i just think joss whedon is a giant shit that needs to be wiped up
i used to watch buffy for s1+2, and the first eps of s3 (with zombies), then when i tuned in again a couple eps later buffy woke up her mum had died and she had a little sister, and i just thought from that moment whedon is a huge Fucktard with massive mental retardation

[dinky]

yeah. the mother thing was handled badly. they more or less sold their soul for a great s2. having mrs. summers know about her daughter kind of ruined the dynamic of the show. not irreparably. the senior year of hs and the first year of college were good. nothing as delicate or deep as the dance they put together in the previous two seasons. while the principal was a lackluster villain, there was still a lot of payoff for the end of the hs years.

likewise, there was some nice territory to mine for going to college for the first time. (undeclared</i> was a series by jude aptaw that FOX cancelled after one year - it handled a lot of the same material better but different)

all seasons of both buffy</i> and angel</i> are bloated with more or less meaningless episodes. personally, I liked "inca mummy girl" and "the pack," but "bad eggs" was only good for the lines. the plot itself was very blah (puppetmasters remake). anyway, even at its best, the series should have been 10-14 eps per season. there are too many one-off eps on all american broadcast serials. then again, who's going to say not to twice as much $$$?

[maxpayne2409]

aren't the one off episodes that usually suck mainly due to the companies bringing in different writers to write some "filler" eps between story arc eps? or something, so they get written differently

[dinky]

short answer: yes and no. the exec producer(s) hire and fire the talent. but obviously, they have to get the studio/tv station to agree</i> with them, cuz they're the ones who actually pay producers to pay the talent.


more elaborate answer: wheden and greenwalt were responsible for the writers. sometimes the writers are "forced" on them, but that's just a horseshit excuse, cuz joss, for example, has final say on what is or is not included at the writing/filming stage (the stations may edit it later). so what will happen is joss will storyboard the season. he'll have maybe 10 really core episodes that he does the story for and/or writes (include david greenwalt in this as well). the pair of them will direct even fewer of these eps. then they'll give the show over to the writers and say "you're writing an episode that happens here on the storyboard. you're free to do x, y, and z, but don't touch g or e." so the writers basically write their own eps (usually under supervision of one of the execs) and they are sure to plant a few certain "seeds" that Joss/David tell them have to be established by the end of the ep.

edit: sometimes the exec producer gets caught-up in something else or isn't paying attention to every detail and gives more control to his underlings and it actually produces much better stuff: see empire strikes back</i> and rotj</i>. now imagine if lucas did it all himself as he did SW and the three prequels.

(movies aren't quite the same as a tv serial, but I think the analogy is reasonable)

I know for a fact that at least one person was a fan of the show on posting boards and comic cons, etc. he became</i> a writer after and because of that. I think he may have been an extra or something too. of course, he had to impress the execs that he had some talent and have enough networking to blah blah blah. but it can</i> happen as casually as that. bear in mind that these WB/UPN shows aren't the major investments that NBC/CBS/F0X/ABC put into their broadcast lineup. It's a lot more "corporate" writing an episode for something like Friends or Will & Grace or ER than buffy or angel. smallville is a slightly different story because warner brothers owns DC comics and they have a vested interest in protecting their franchise. so those producers are probably</i> (I'm just speculating) under more pressure in regard to the content of the episodes than the guys behind buffy</i> and angel</i>. similarly, firefly</i> was picked-up by fox, and they have very different ideas of acceptable audience numbers from wb/upn. so yeah, they gave him carte blanche to make whatever series he wanted, but they also pulled the plug right quick because it was a very particular</i> kind of show. I mean, honestly, no matter how good it is, who the hell sits down to watch a space-western? on friday nights! not that the show would have worked on the smaller nets. it skewed to a much older (and smaller) audience than the buffyverse. but I think that's also about as much leeway as a major broadcast company will give you. I seem to recall a lot of overhauling on millenium before FOX just said fuckit. I don't care if it's chris carter. iunno. it's murky, but the producers are still ultimately responsible. on big vehicles like E. R., produces leave (michael critchton) and some leave and come back (david e. kelly on Chicago Hope, I think it was called...one of the hospital shows).

[spudthedestroyer]

erm...you know it's wolfram and hart (wiki link), right?

Erm.. no that was what someone who's seen like one episode would say in his infinite naivity (if you insist on throwing this suggestion around, or just plum forgot if you decide to give it a rest ).

That's the Earth version, they are actually an interdimensional "organisation" known as "The Wolf, The Ram, and The Hart" who are behind the apocalypse. They don't exist on the same dimension, but the earth bound incarnation is the lawyer firm Wolfram & Hart. Its the Wolf, Ram and Hart that are pulling the strings though

[quote]Angel visit Pylea, we discover that that world (or, at least the township we see there) is run by minions of "The Wolf, The Ram, and The Hart," and we learn that Wolfram and Hart; or at least the demonic "Senior Partners," resident of some other, unspecified, dimension �?

[spudthedestroyer]

What i'd like to see is a TV movie of Angel. Buffy is done, i don't think there's any need to bring back that dead horse. I think it could do quite well though, especially given how Angel ended. Then again, a lot of the central characters died. I don't mind stuff ending badly though, but if they return to the buffyverse that's what i think they should do.

I heard something about "Ripper" which sounds sooooo lame. Its like more buffy, a drama about Giles. I really don't think that will be very interesting or infact necessary. I also heard about a movie about spike. I understand since he's a funny character, and he's actually the Vampire with a soul in the shanshu prophecy which was the plot twist in S5 of Angel. I just don't think a mission is there though, especially when his sidekick i heard was Illyria. Best to stick with Angel for a tv movie, although its been two years now and i've not heard very much else.

Then again, like i keep saying, I really think whedon might be best trying something new, the uber chic stuff is getting a bit scarey. The only project he's done that wasn't that was Toy Story He seems to be able to write quirky dialogue.

[JLmaXe]

[JLmaXe]

[dinky]

erm...you know it's wolfram and hart (wiki link), right?

That's the Earth version, they are actually an interdimensional "organisation" known as "The Wolf, The Ram, and The Hart" who are behind the apocalypse. They don't exist on the same dimension, but the earth bound incarnation is the lawyer firm Wolfram & Hart. Its the Wolf, Ram and Hart that are pulling the strings though

[quote]Angel visit Pylea, we discover that that world (or, at least the township we see there) is run by minions of "The Wolf, The Ram, and The Hart," and we learn that Wolfram and Hart; or at least the demonic "Senior Partners," resident of some other, unspecified, dimension �?